HU2U Podcast: Why is DEI Important? feat. Dr. Stephanie Leonard

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Episode Transcript

Publishing Date: October 21, 2024

[00:00:00] Monica: Diversity, equity, and inclusion, or DEI, has become a major buzzword in the workplace. What it intends to do is increase diversity, equity, and inclusion in the office, but how to make it successful depends on several factors. According to a recent Pew Research Center study, 56% say that having DEI in the workplace is a good thing, 72% have said that having DEI policies in place when it comes to hiring, pay, or promotions have had a positive effect where they work. The study also found that minorities and women tended to say DEI was a good thing more than White and male workers, as did younger employees than older employees. But to make sure our workplace DEI program really makes people feel diverse, equal, and included takes a lot more than just checking off some boxes. Let's dig into it.

Welcome to HU2U, the podcast where we bring today's important topics and stories from Howard University to you. I'm Monica Lewis, today's host. And I'm here with Dr. Stephanie Leonard, Assistant Professor of Management in the School of Business at Howard University, and an expert in DEI in the workplace.

Dr. Leonard, let's talk first about what diversity here means. We're not just talking about race and gender. So, what are forms or other forms of diversity that marginalized people might feel needs to be part of a DEI program?

[00:01:30] Stephanie: Diversity and inclusion are two separate entities. So, when we're talking about diversity, we have deep-level diversity, and then we have surface-level diversity dimensions. The surface-level diversity dimensions are those that people think they can see with the naked eye. So, we have race, we have gender. Some people think they can tell ethnicity, sexual orientation, religion. And even height and weight are now considered surface-level diversity dimensions.

The deep-level diversity dimensions include values, personality traits, the ways people prefer to work, and things like that, level of education, economic status, and things of that nature. So, the surface-level diversity is very important because that is what makes people's lived experiences different because that's how we categorize each other. And then the surface-level diversity is also important because organizations want similarities there. They want people with similar values and things like that.

[00:02:23] Monica: Why is having DEI important? What does it bring to the people for whom these programs have been designed?

[00:02:31] Stephanie: Speaking of the difference between diversity and inclusion, so, diversity just means, how many different types of people do we have here, or the ways in which people are different. But when it comes to inclusion, we're saying, do those people feel like they belong? Are they welcome because they're different and not in spite of the fact that they're different?

And so, when it comes to inclusion, it's very, very important because we have these huge issues with discrimination still, right? We have the gender pay gap. We're still 83 cents, I think, or 84 cents to the dollar. And I took it upon myself to do the math. And we have a huge disparity when it comes to… that's $10,000 a year on average. And then that's $200,000 over some person's career. And if a person invested that money, now we're talking about over $2 million, right? That is a huge issue, and we have to, kind of, close that gap.

So, there's, like, a moral case for diversity. There's a business case for diversity. So, a gender pay gap, that's a moral case for diversity. Do we need to do the right thing here? Do we want to help in this systemic discrimination, you know, historically marginalized groups? Do we want to make the environment better for them? And then the business case for diversity is, how can we access these markets if we don't have these diverse people in our organization to tell us how to access the people in their culture?

And so, I don't think the two have to be mutually exclusive. I think the two are important, but the issue with inclusion is you're not going to get that business case, you're not going to get the innovation, you're not going to get the creative thinking, you're not going to get the problem-solving from diverse employees unless there's an inclusive environment.

So, it's honestly a waste to have all of these diverse people here if, you know, they're going to walk out the door. They have choices. We have lots of choices now. People are more informed than ever before. And they're not going to stick around in an organization that just makes them feel like an outlier or ostracized. So, those are some reasons why it's super important to invest in it.

[00:04:32] Monica: So, workplaces are making an effort to incorporate DEI. And in some places, it's a welcome program where people have adjusted to very easily. And in other places, not so much. I mean, can you explain what's happening in those offices where it's more challenging to make that change toward embracing DEI?

[00:04:52] Stephanie: Yeah. So, it's really tough to introduce a diversity program in an organization that has had either no programming or minimal programming. We're talking about resistance to change. So, it's hard to get people to change in general, to change their thoughts, their feelings, and their behaviors. When we talk about making things equitable for everyone, whatever group has been in power, they feel like it's a loss, right? A loss of power. They feel like it's a loss of privilege. And that can be different. And people have their different ways of managing the change process because everyone is different.

Organizations are concerned that they're going to lose employees, right? If things are way different than they usually have been, our employees are going to be unhappy. And organizations don't like unhappy employees, right? They want them to stay. It's expensive to replace people, right?

And so, organizations just have to be okay with losing employees. They do. And really, it's not a loss. It's you're coming into an alignment with what you said you wanted, what you said your mission was. And this is the cost. We're going to attract candidates that work for us, and we're going to lose those employees that no longer work for our vision. And that's how organizations have to look at it. But that's why some organizations really, really struggle because they're not, they're not accepting that things are going to change and there might be some risk and failure along the way.

[00:06:24] Monica: So, in previous conversations, you said that we are in an adolescent phase when it comes to incorporating DEI in the workplace. Can you explain what you mean by that?

[00:06:34] Stephanie: When it comes to diversity, the word, "diversity," comes from biology, right? So, they were talking about plants and animals, right? When it comes to the workplace, we just started using that in the year 2000. So, the Department of Labor put out a publication called Workforce 2000, and that's where we first saw this word, “diversity.”

So, if you think about it that way, we've been studying it in that context for 24 years now. So, we've been doing some work prior to that. So, of course, we've had affirmative action. Of course, there has been work done before that. But that publication told us, “Hey, the workforce is changing. We need to get ready for it.”

And that is when we started studying and organizations took it seriously, like, if we don't do something different, we are the ones that are going to fail because it's coming. When it comes to research and implementing the research in organizations, there are tons of hurdles. So, we've been managing these hurdles. So, it's been a slow process. It's been 24 years. But it's been an extremely slow process. Even now, even with collecting data, getting access to organizations, they are afraid of what they're going to find. So, it's almost like, if we don't see it, then we don't have to do anything about it, right? So, there is that issue.

And then publications in diversity tend to be more challenging. Lots of the reviewer comments are interesting. And so, compared to other areas of organizational research, we've been studying organizations since the industrial revolution. So, we're still in our adolescence phase because we're just so much younger. There's so much more to learn. Organizations really don't know which strategies work for which types of organizational environments yet. And it's a try-and-fail, you know, season that we're in right now.

So, I say it's a great time for people to get into this field because we're really laying the foundation for how diversity and inclusion is going to look in the future. Despite, you know, all the challenges that we all hear about in the media now, it's still a great time to get in because we're really doing a lot of the groundwork.

[00:08:29] Monica: Something you said about you want to make your employees comfortable and happy and keep them because it's, you know, more expensive to replace, but it seems like there’s… since we're so young in this whole diversity work and you're trying to make employees happy to keep them, but you also have to be comfortable enough to, perhaps, let some go. Does that add to the challenge? Is that one we're still fairly inexperienced when it comes to diversity, equity, and inclusion work, but also, we're trying to make employees happy, but also be comfortable with letting those who don't want to fit in go? So, it seems like there was quite a conundrum from our employers.

[00:09:03] Stephanie: There's a… it's a huge conundrum. It's a, it's a huge task, but it's no larger a task than, say, launching a whole entirely different product. It's no bigger deal than replacing all of the technology because what we're doing is outdated. So, it is a task, but it's not something that organizations don't know how to do. They know how to change. They know what organizational change means. And it's a matter of, if top management, if the C-suite believes that this is a worthy cause, if they feel like it's going to be the best thing for their organization, that determines whether they move forward with this full steam ahead, you know, attitude about it.

[00:09:43] Monica: It's funny you say it's like launching a product because I want to ask you, we should be treating DEI work like we're launching a product. So, you know, we give it the attention that it deserves at a product or a service that we want to give to our consumers. What are some of the risks associated with launching a product? And how do you go about if something doesn't quite work, getting in a different type of alignment and moving forward with the same product, but maybe a different approach?

[00:10:10] Stephanie: So, when it comes to launching a new product or service, all of the planning that goes into it is to decrease the risk that it takes to launch a new product or service. If not, they would come up with this really innovative idea and just launch it. But we can't do that because we need to analyze the environment. We need to do competitive sourcing. We need to do analysis. How much capital do we have? We need to know where our resources, our human resources, our people, what talents and skills do they have?

I mean, it's thorough, right? It's a rigorous investigation of whether or not this is going to work. And sometimes, it's not a question of whether or not it's going to work, it's how can we make this work? And so, in my opinion, I believe that, when it comes to DEI, we need to approach it in that similar way. What people do we have that are going to help us? What experts do we need to bring in to make this happen? How much money can we allocate? What is going to be our return on revenue once we get this right? How can we make climates more inclusive?

It's unfortunate that some organizations don't approach it that way. So, instead, what they do is they hire a diversity and inclusion, let's say, chief diversity officer. They may give them one or two people. The resources that they give them are not adequate enough for the job that they have tasked them with. And it's just not cutting the mustard, frankly, you know.

And so, that signals to employees, to customers, to all stakeholders that you're not taking diversity and inclusion seriously. Because if you took it as seriously as this new product or service, then we would have a plethora of employees hired or at least brought into this department. We would give them access to the power and resources they need. We know what champions around this organization are going to help this cause. All of this would be planned out. We would have tolerance for failure, as you mentioned. This is new, even more new because we're in this adolescent phase. Do you have a tolerance for risk taking? Is your organization innovative?

If you're a tech organization, there is no reason because they spend lots of money on research and development. They know how much money goes down the drain. And they don't think about it as going down the drain. They think about it as an investment in the next big thing. And that's how you have to treat diversity and inclusion as well. This is an investment. If we fail, we're going to assess what went wrong, and we're going to get back on the saddle and try it again until we get it right. And that's what you do when it's important to you, when it's at the core of your vision for the company.

[00:12:46] Monica: Sure. I've heard people be critical of some companies that were very gung-ho with DEI work in 2020 after the George Floyd situation. And there seems to be like a little bit of a pullback or a lack of anything really happening. So, how can… what advice would you give the companies to, kind of, stay true to the course and, and maybe not do these things because of a specific cause, but really because it's what they want their company culture to be like?

[00:13:12] Stephanie: There's been a mass exodus of chief diversity officers in huge companies, Fortune 500 companies, small businesses. And it's for two reasons. One, the companies are pulling their budgets back. So, they'll say, “You know, we no longer have a budget for this.” And the other reason is, and I have friends who are in this position or have been, they're not getting the support that they need to do their jobs. And so, they cannot get the job done without C-suite commitment, without a budget. They expect the people of color or any marginalized community to take on this role free of charge, without compensation. And it's unfair. And so, for those reasons, we see a mass exodus.

How do companies stay committed to diversity and inclusion? Well, that just tells me that… it goes into my research a little bit. Their reason for introducing diversity programming was not an organizational shift or a change or an opportunity for learning. It could be because they did not want to get in trouble with special interest groups. They did not want the EEO or the Department of Labor to come knocking saying, “Hey, you haven't fulfilled your quotas.” Those are some of the reasons why companies introduce diversity programming. And then once we get the employees here, the inclusion climate is, is not great. They leave. And so, we're back to square one.

So, I would go back to the mission, vision, and part of the strategy and determine, where does diversity fit there? It has to be at the core of your business. Diversity affects every single part of the business, inside, outside, top to bottom. And so, if it's not woven throughout, there are going to be missteps, and you're going to end up, like I said, back at square one. So, I would go back to the beginning with the strategy phase.

[00:15:02] Monica: So, in some workplaces, it might be more difficult to diversify, given the labor pool, geography, etc. How can a workplace still offer a DEI-friendly environment even if the actual number of diverse individuals is low?

[00:15:18] Stephanie: So, I hear this question as, why should we care about diversity and inclusion if there aren't too many diverse employees here? For me, we still need to be celebrating deep-level diversity. These are the dimensions that we cannot see. Our differences in personalities, our differences in values, our different religions.

And celebrate what you can celebrate. For instance, if there is a flexible work schedule program that's working well because women are allowed to, you know, there's child care or, you know, things like that. Celebrate that because it's going well.

And I also think it's important to plan for the arrival of your diverse employees. You may not have them now, but you still have to plan for them to come. So, just like, if you were expecting a family member, you're going to start cleaning up your house. You're going to start putting away the stuff you don't want them to see — not like a dusting, a deep clean — before they come, so that when they arrive, the environment is set. And that is a huge problem in organizations, is that we figure out how to get the diverse employees, but we forgot to change our culture before they got there.

We had some students in the school of business. We have a partnership and it's out in middle America. They went there for the summer. And their experience wasn't the most pleasant because those organizations, while they wanted diversity because that state just isn't super diverse, they didn't prepare for those students. And so, it took some planning after the fact, and let's do some sessions about diversity and inclusion. All that should have happened prior to.

And so, a culture shift and strategy needs to happen before, because if you're going to keep up with the competition and the way that business environment is going, you need diverse employees. You will fail to exist. So, it's important to start even before they arrive.

[00:17:13] Monica: So, this is a little bit of a piggyback on that. What will happen to offices that are more resistant to incorporating DEI or whose DEI programs have not been successful thus far?

[00:17:27] Stephanie: This is similar to asking Blockbuster what happens when you don't offer digital streaming services, right? They are no longer with us, unfortunately. And I say that because I, I call them my friends at Blockbuster in my class, and we use them all the time. It's an excellent case to study what happens when the environment isn't flexible enough to respond to the environment.

So, what's happening with diversity and inclusion, or any business, when you launch a product or service, the environment will choose who is going to be successful, which companies are going to be successful. It's the company's job to respond to what the environment wants. What do the customers want? What are our stakeholders saying? What is the competition doing? That's the job of a firm. When it comes to diversity and inclusion, it's the same thing. And so, if the business environment keeps changing, our customers are more informed than ever before. They have social media and Google. They're going to research whether or not you are doing right by your customers. Your employees are looking for inclusive environments. If you cannot provide this, then slowly, but surely, you're going to be the lone wolf, right? It's going to be an outlier. I think any resistance at this point, it's, it's going to lead to a downfall of an organization. I hate to be doom-and-gloom about it, but I feel like it's going to lead to a downfall. Employees will choose to work elsewhere, frankly. They have choices. People will buy products or service at other places.

And there's evidence of this, like, in the wake of George Floyd, when we had those organizations who put up those lukewarm, you know, social media posts, the people did not like that. And everyone was at home, paying attention to what social media was doing. I myself was asked to be on a diversity task force for a local high school. They put up a post in support of Black Lives Matter, but it really was very tone deaf. And so, that opened Pandora's box and a lot of the alumni of the school started posting on social media about their experiences they had while at that high school, and it wasn't pretty. So, those things happen. Diversity crisis management, people don't know how to handle a diversity crisis. We know how to handle all kinds of crises, but when it comes to diversity crisis, it takes companies weeks to come back to present to the public what is going to be done. And it's just unacceptable. And so, all of those things will lead to a downfall and a failure for the organization.

[00:19:54] Monica: Yeah. I'm going to get a little personal. When I was a college intern, I should say, I worked for a newspaper and they were covering a story that was about an event that was predominantly Black, where they were bringing Black people to the city of Philadelphia. And some of the angles they wanted to use were, like, you know, board up your doors and your windows because they're coming in and they're bringing, you know, groups of, you know, unruly young people. I, because I actually was a student, you know, here at Howard, was empowered to talk to the editors about maybe covering it from a different angle and talking about the good things that, you know, really were the, the impetus for the activity even take place in the first place.

Do you think that your students or students at Howard or other HBCUs are empowered to speak about the importance of diversifying office or workplaces and to be having more inclusive decision-making? I mean, do you think that, regardless of what they go into when they leave this university, are they empowered to be DEI ambassadors or is that your goal?

[00:20:55] Stephanie: I think they are empowered. I think our students, in particular, are very aware of the injustices of this world, right? And our motto here is truth and service. And we are to be of service to, you know, the world, essentially, and to the community.

So, in my diversity and inclusion course, for example, I don't spend too much time going over basic understanding of diversity and inclusion. They understand. I don't spend too much time convincing them that it's important because they understand that. So, in that sense, I believe our students and, you know, this generation, younger students have a leg up. And they are going into organizations expecting inclusivity.

And are they empowered to speak up in the organization? I think so. There's an up and down side to empowerment and to speaking up. And I lay out those choices, you know, in the class. And the answer can be, “Yes, I want to be the person who speaks up.” And it's also okay if your answer is, “No, I'm, I'm not the person today who is going to speak up.” And so, I believe they have everything that they need to be able to do it. And then the choice is theirs if they want to, kind of, join in the fight.

[00:22:11] Monica: So, in the meantime, what can our listeners do to encourage DEI in their own workplaces?

[00:22:18] Stephanie: Before I answer the question, I want to go back to the idea that the people of color or any marginalized LGBTQ community, the disabled community, has to take on the banner, has to take up the charge and charge the hill. It's almost expected sometimes in organizations that that is going to be the case. They're going to start these employee resource groups. They are going to be the ones to always speak up. They're doing recruitment. I can't tell you how many employees are doing diversity level recruitment. And that is… they're not even in HR. And without being compensated. Again, this just speaks to the, the level of importance that the organization puts on diversity.

So, I would like to give, you know, these tips, but under the guidance that it's not necessary. You don't have to do it. A lot of us do it because we feel it's important, right? Employees of color, employees of marginalized communities, they're more altruistic than other companies. We actually give more in charity, even though the wage gap is there for, you know, different races and women to men, too.

To answer your question, one of the things I think is really important is to amplify voices, amplify marginalized voices. And we do this in a lot of ways. We can bring people in for a brown bag or maybe Hispanic Heritage Month, like, you were mentioning before. What do we do if we don't have a lot of diversity? You can still celebrate Hispanic Heritage Month, right? You can still bring in someone to lend their voice and have people listen and interact with people that they normally may not. I think that's super important.

We can also amplify voices. So, if you call yourself an ally, or if you're another woman in a meeting, we have this idea called critical mass index. What is a critical mass index of, say, women on a board of directors? Well, when there's one woman, it's tough to get those ideas and perspectives across because it is looked at as, well, that's your perspective. Like, that's your experience. We don't need to really take it seriously. But if just one other woman, or one other person, seconds what that person is saying, or they support what that person is saying or say, “Hey, tell me more about that,” it changes things. And so, that's another way we can amplify voices.

When I was in my graduate program, it happened when all the classes are seminar classes. So, we have to have conversations about research. And you have one of the women say something, and maybe a man will cut, you know, cut her off. And so, another woman would say, “Alison, what you were saying was really interesting. Can you continue,” you know. And then everyone becomes aware, like, “Oh, okay. I think I cut that person off, or let's not cut her off.” Or, sometimes, we don't listen to ideas from certain people, and then someone else says the very same idea, right? And so, it's important for that ally or that extra person to say, “You know what? That's amazing. Allison had that same idea. Isn't that similar to the idea that you brought up 20 minutes ago?” And so, those things help to even out some environments that may not be so inclusive.

Employees can start employee resource groups, if there aren't any. Some organizations aren't too welcoming of them, but it doesn't have to be formal, you know. It can start as an informal thing, meeting every third Wednesday at a local coffee shop or something like that. So, that's something that can be done.

Mentorship is really, really important. People need all different types of mentors. A lot of people think one mentor is good enough, and it really isn't. So, we need a mentor that is great for, like, “This is the person who has gone on the path that I want to go on. This is a person who's going to say my name in rooms. They have some power. This is the person who is going to tell me what outside of work I can do.” So, there are different types of mentors that we need. And if you have time and space, you should volunteer to be a mentee. And sometimes, we feel like, if that… if one person already has a mentor, then we can't mentor that person. No, you can, you can also be a mentor for that person. And that has known to change things. And I'm also a proponent of cross-cultural mentorships because we… the human nature is to… we're attracted to people who are most like us. But if, especially if we're talking about pay or access to resources, we have to talk to White men. We just do. If you're a person of color, if you're marginalized, if you're, you know, the LGBT community, White, straight men, it's not to say, you know, be weird and stalk people or anything like that. But it is to say that, if you find someone who is super trustworthy, and this is with any mentor, it's very important to know how much they're getting paid. What resources are they getting? They may be going to golf, you know, on Sundays. You had no idea they were doing that. And so, that's super important in the mentorship relationship.

Be yourself as much as possible. It takes extra mental and physical emotional resources to be someone else. And a lot of people do it at work. And it's a choice. It's not a bad choice. But as much as possible, be yourself because it lets other people around you know for the next person coming in to respect that person no matter how they show up. So, that's super important.

And then, lastly, if you're engaging in all of that, you're going to need to do some self-care. So, you have to take care of yourself and do the type of self-care that makes you recharged and makes you empowered, because, you know, you may go to yoga, you know, hot yoga with a, with a girlfriend, that person leaves absolutely, you know, de-stressed and you are more stressed than ever because you're sore and sweaty and all of those things. Maybe your source of self-care is, you know, going to brunch or going to church or something like that. So, engaging in the self-care because it can be an uphill battle.

Even those like me who choose to do this work, it's an uphill battle, just like therapists. It can be dark, right? You hear about people's traumas. People come to you with discrimination cases. People come to you with grievances. And it can be frustrating. It can be maddening. And you have to engage in the self-care it takes to really feel that power again.

So, for me, I go to Black history, like, events. I go to museums. When I was living in Louisiana, I went to plantations. Those types of things really invigorate me and make me… let me remember why I'm doing this. And so, it's helpful to me.

And then, also, lastly, again with self-care, you can tell people no. So, if you're asked to take up the banner, you can tell people you don't have the bandwidth to do it and not feel the burden or, like, you're letting the race down or you're letting the gender down or something like that. You can say no. You got to tell them no sometimes. And so, that is also important.

And you don't have to say “yes” every day. If you get that email, like, you're part of some diversity board and you get the email that there's been a grievance, you don't have to answer it today. You can answer it tomorrow when you have more resources available to you. So, I think all of those things combined, I think people will, you know, get a good start in trying to elevate diversity at work.

[00:29:24] Monica: It's funny, you mentioned the burden. And you had said it earlier in the conversation. Some people feel like they have to, maybe because there's not another person there or because they wanted to see a wrong righted, so to speak. So, I mean, how, how do you balance between being burdened by this work, but also wanting to make sure that people who look like you or you care for are taken care of at the workplace or in the workplace?

[00:29:48] Stephanie: Yeah. I think it's important to leave the door open, right? If you happen to get in the door, are you going to leave a door stop? Are you going to leave the door open for the next person? And that in itself is a separate job from your actual job. If you are having to do that, it probably means that you are working in an environment where you're going to have to spend your mental and emotional resources navigating it yourself, right? And so, you just have to take into account what you have the energy and resources and time to do. And being okay with not feeling guilty about not taking up every single opportunity that comes your way. I think some people feel that they should save everyone, particularly, if you were someone who was covered by someone else or you were someone who “I had the door left open for you.”

You can do all of those things, but again, you have to put the mask on yourself in a plane, right, before you can put the mask on someone else. And so, it's important to do your best, because if you don't do your best, you won't have the resources to help anybody else. You have to elevate. You have to get whatever position. You have to be in position, in order to help someone. And so, that's the best answer that I can, I can give for that. Yeah.

[00:31:11] Monica: Dr. Leonard, I just want to thank you for coming to this podcast. I found you to be a very insightful and inspiring person to have this very important conversation with. So, thank you for your time.

[00:31:21] Stephanie: Well, thank you so much. I'm so excited to, you know, I say I preach the gospel of diversity and inclusion wherever I go. So, I'm happy to share. So, thank you for inviting

[00:31:31] Monica: Thank you! Thank you! So, this is HU2U, the podcast where we dig into today's important topics and stories from Howard University to you. I'm Monica Lewis, today's host, and thank you for listening. HU!

[00:32:03] Stephanie: You know!